385: Uncertainty and The Art of Paying Attention to Small Things
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One of the titles in the Object Lesson series, a collection of concise, collectable, beautifully designed books about the hidden lives of ordinary things. Each book starts from a specific inspiration: a historical event, a literary passage, a personal narrative, a technological innovation—and from that starting point explores the object of the title, gleaning a singular lesson or multiple lessons along the way. Featuring contributions from writers, artists, scholars, journalists, and others, the emphasis throughout is lucid writing, imagination, and brevity. Object Lessons paints a picture of the world around us, and tells the story of how we got here, one object at a time.
Guest
Christopher Schaberg, PhD., is the Director of Public Scholarship at Washington University in St. Louis, as well as a founding editor of Object Lessons, a book series on the secret lives of ordinary things. Chris is the author of ten books, including one really good one on fly-fishing.
Summary
In this wide-ranging conversation, Chris reflects on curiosity, confusion, and the value of paying attention to small things. He begins by adapting Norman Maclean’s line from A River Runs Through It—“Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.” by suggesting that “confusion” or “mystery” runs through his own life and work, a reminder that lingering in uncertainty can be a fertile state for creativity and learning. Chris also discusses his fascination with airports, where he once worked, and how those complex spaces became both a professional subject and a metaphor for human experience.
We also explore his “Object Lessons” book series, which celebrates the hidden lives of ordinary things, and his broader intellectual project of focusing on the small, the local, and the limited—an intentional counterbalance to a culture obsessed with scale, speed, and expansion. This theme carries through his writing on fly fishing, Adventure: An Argument for Limits, and Little Data, all of which urge closer attention to what’s near, tangible, and often overlooked.
As director of public scholarship, Chris works to help academics communicate their research clearly and meaningfully to general audiences, fostering what he sees as a moral imperative for universities: to re-engage with the public in accessible, authentic ways. He and I also reflect on teaching, the challenges of student preparation, and the evolving role of curiosity in an AI-driven age. Chris closes by describing fly fishing not as an escape but as a way to recenter attention and rediscover connection—with nature, with others, and with ourselves.
The Essential Point
Chris’s essential insight is that confusion and uncertainty are not obstacles but opportunities—spaces where curiosity deepens, learning expands, and meaningful connections between art, scholarship, and everyday life emerge.
“The best essays leave you more puzzled about a topic in a constructive way. It’s okay to be confused—linger there.”
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About Jeff
Jeff Ikler is the Director of Quetico Leadership and Career Coaching. “Quetico” (KWEH-teh-co). He works with leaders in all aspects of life to identify and overcome obstacles in their desired future. He came to the field of coaching after a 35-year career in educational publishing. Prior to his career in educational publishing, Jeff taught high school U.S. history and government.
Jeff has hosted the “Getting Unstuck—Cultivating Curiosity” podcast for 5 years. The guests and topics he explores are designed to help listeners think differently about the familiar and welcome the new as something to consider. He is also the co-host of the Cultivating Resilience – A Whole Community Approach to Alleviating Trauma in Schools, which promotes mental health and overall wellness.
Jeff co-authored Shifting: How School Leaders Can Create a Culture of Change. Shifting integrates leadership development and change mechanics in a three-part change framework to help guide school leaders and their teams toward productive change.
Show Credits
"Getting Unstuck" is commercial-free. It’s brought to you by Jeff Ikler, his amazing guests, and Neil Hughes, the best engineer a podcaster could ask for.
"Getting Unstuck" theme music: Original composition of "Allegro ben ritmato e deciso" by George Gershwin. Arrangement and recording courtesy of Bruno Lecoeur.